Terrapin Tables

Perhaps in his mind he felt as if he could do his best by fighting for his counrtry. We may not agree with him, but I don't think it's fair to call it a bonehead move. Tillman may have not given a shit about the money and was perhaps so disturbed by what happened that this was his best course of action- to remember those that died and fight for those that are alive.

It's pretty safe to say that a lot of us don't agree with what is going on over there, especially the way our prez is spinning it in such a 'matter of factish' fashion. I can't find any fault in someone who would do what Tillman did....even if he did do it under the orders of a lying, rich, dumb fuck-up.

Yeah, he did what was right for him, but I just gotta think a guy in his unique position could have better applied hinself, like the charities and such. You don't see Mike Anderson hopping on a C-130 to Kabul. If the country is "at war" there will always be that percentage of the population that is clamoring to enlist in the army for whatever reason. These people aren't in Tillman's powerful situation of money and visiblity, so let them go.

I wasn't saying it was "bonehead" for any ideological reasons (even my hippie ass would fight in, say, a WWII situation - and I fucked up that guy's car hood real nice the other day), but because of who/what he was I think he could have made better use of himself. I mean: he's dead in the desert, and as TurbanBoy is still on the lam, he can't claim to have succeeded.

As an aside, ESPNews said he was making 18,ooo a year as a SpecOps soldier. Not that he should have made his 3M, this wasn't about money for him, but that is shit cash for the kinds of things those dudes do.

Who cares about money? I mean, he surely didn't. Giving up 3M makes it a story, but if he made $5/hour or $100M, I think he would have done this anyway. He felt that he needed to do this, for his country and for what he believed in. He stood by his convictions and showed more character than most people. Tillman didn't ask for attention, media, cameras, he just wanted to be one of the soldiers - fight for his country. He gave up personal gain for doing what he believed to be right. Doubt many of us could give up what he had if we believed in what he did. Hell, I am not sure I would give up my crappy job (which pays slightly under 3 million).

As for the speaking thing...who is going to listen to what Pat Tillman has to say, if he is merely a pro football player? I mean, he was alright, not great, how much power does he carry? It would be like Matt Bowen talking to middle schoolers in Northern Virginia. Not sure that affects much change.

It is just a shame that he had to die for this war and this fight.

Just my 2 cents. The whole thing is very humbling. To me anyway.

F.Y.I.: That "bonehead" graduated in three and a half years and with top honors from ASU. Lets not speak ill of the dead, especially if we dont know what we're talking about.

I never called him a bonehead - I said what he did was a bonehead move, and I even made it clear that it was my opinion. I said nothing against him personally other than questioning his judgement. So I'm not the one who doesn't know what they're talking about.

Since so many other people with less ability and resources available to benefit the country would have gladly stepped into his shoes, I question his rationale. That's all.

You're not making 3mill, and you're his age when he joined, so what's stopping you?

--Devil's advocate.

I'm getting in on this late, but I can see where Chris is coming from. My boss told me a story about his dad. I forget all the details, but it goes something like this. Back during WWII, his dad was in the army. They did some type of aptitude test or something to figure out which soldiers were the brightest mechanically, put them in their own division or whatever it's called, and enrolled them in an accelerated engineering course. Right before the Battle of the Bulge, the army decided that what they really needed were more people to pull triggers, so they pulled them out of college with one semester to go, and put them on the front line. During the battle, they got caught behind enemy lines, and something like less than a dozen survived. I'm not trying to say that anyone's life is more valuable than another's, but anybody can be trained to pull a trigger; not everyone can be trained to be an engineer (or several other professions). It's a waste to put those people into action when others could be doing it, and they could be applying their talents elsewhere. Some people talk about it being your patriotic duty to serve your country. But that shouldn't necessarily mean being a soldier or being in the military if you can make more valuable contributions elsewhere. In fact, it's almost irresponsible to let yourself be killed if you could be doing something else (imagine if Einstein had died in war). Just my 2 cents worth, cause I thought Chris made a valid point, and nobody else seemed to support it.

I think that's a pretty arrogant way of looking at it:
"I'm not trying to say that anyone's life is more valuable than another's, but anybody can be trained to pull a trigger; not everyone can be trained to be an engineer (or several other professions). It's a waste to put those people into action when others could be doing it, and they could be applying their talents elsewhere."
That's pretty easy for an engineer to say, as you have that talent. But because someone may have not as been as fortunate to get a decent education and make a difference socially doesn't make them an instant applicant for a bullet catcher. And WWII is a horrible example because as far as I can tell that was the most patriotic this country had ever been. There were 15 and 16 year old boys saying they were 18 just so they could go fight. Who knows what inventions or theories they may have come up with in life, but that doesn't take away their contribution or lessen their memory. They felt as if they were doing what they were doing for the greater good. If everyone thought what they were doing was "irresponsible" no one would have ever taken on those threats to us, we'd all be goose stepping down Pennsylvania Ave. The man did what he thought was best, why do we have to quantify his decision based on what he did for a living?

i've been busy, so i haven't had a chance to reply. here's some not-so-unrelated thoughts

regarding what chris has said...
it's not clear to me that he "could have done a lot more positive things for American people by staying home, playing ball, starting some charities, visiting schools, etc" there are a number of reasons i don't agree with this. there are lot of people doing those things who never get mentioned, while pat tillman's story has touched many in an extremely positive way. indeed, it is because he didn't have to go and had a wonderful life that his choice is so awe-inspiring. and if you're thinking of this strictly from an economic view, the money he would have made is still there, be it in the pocket of another player or players, or an owner, all of whom have the opportunity to start charities, visit schools, etc. to critique him for giving up that economic power to influence others, you must also critique those who took his place for also not applying that economic power.

"I mean: he's dead in the desert, and as TurbanBoy is still on the lam, he can't claim to have succeeded." To the contrary, i believe he did succeed in a great number of things, like inspiring others on the proper way to live (throughout, he and his family have tried to downplay his decision), not to mention inspiring people to remain true to their convictions.

regarding what fatboy said...
"anybody can be trained to pull a trigger; not everyone can be trained to be an engineer (or several other professions)" again, i wholeheartedly disagree. i do not think it is the case that while everyone can be trained to pull a trigger, only some can be trained to be an engineer. case in point, it would take a lot of kicking and screaming (on my part) for me to be trained to be an engineer. it would take considerably more to train me to be a soldier. let us also not forget that he was part of the army rangers which i belive (though i confess i'm not sure) is not just something you go enlist in - like military engineers, there aren't that many that qualify to be an army ranger. and the analogy to the WWII example doesn't hold up. there's a difference between critiquing the army for assigning certain people to the front lines and critiquing pat tillman for volunteering for the rangers. one of the values that i like to think this country is fighting for is the right to self-determination of one's life.

Does everyone agree that Tillman's death will serve as an inspiration for others? It seems as though it might serve as a cautionary tale. I'm not sure there is a debate that what he did took courage. I think there is a debate as to who will want to be like Tillman in what he sacrificed for his country? Or will more people not want to be like Tillman, a casualty of war in the desert?
Economically, I wonder if he would have gone had he not been an NFL player. That is to say, that the money he has earned in his NFL career might have served as some assurance that his family would be taken care of should he be killed in action. It seems as though he was not this kind of person, but I would imagine the money he had earned made his decision easier, a luxury not everyone can afford.

And regarding self-determination of one's life, I am not sure the military as a whole is a great example. To say that you volunteer for the Rangers, or most things in the military for that matter, is like saying you volunteered to play for the Orioles, as if the burden was on the organization, that you are doing them a favor. It is my impression that you are chosen for these more elite groups. Sure, there is some element of self-determination as to whether you choose to join the organization, but I would imagine that you would be honored that you are selected by the organization, and not the organization would be honored that you volunteered.

i never said the inspiration he provided was for people to join the military. he has touched me, and i'm not any closer to enlisting. what has come across to me is the importance of self-determination, living humbly, and living to your principles, even if it means passing on millions of dollars.

the idea of volunteering is simply this: he didn't have to go. in fatboy's example, the engineers didn't volunteer to go to the front lines. he did. in know way does that have anything to do with tillman doing the army any favors. indeed, i think it is an honor to be able to join the rangers, just as it is an honor to play for the orioles (which, incidentally, reinforces the point that being a rangers, like being an engineers is not just something the 18 yr olds from oklahoma can do). the point is that i disagree with critiquing his decision on the basis that he could have done something else (which chris and fatboy contend would have been better), on the basis of valuing self-determination.